A PbtA Thought Experiment

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Prelim 1. Otherkind Dice & Assigning “Say”

You may recall that a dice system called Otherkind Dice was the mechanical precursor to Apocalypse World’s moves.

I’ve written a whole piece about Otherkind Dice, laying them out in detail; you can read it here. For purposes of my thought experiment today, though, this is the important passage:

First Say vs Final Say

When we first published Psi*Run, the going fad in indie rpg design was to write rules that assign who has the final say. Psi*Run doesn’t do that; it assigns the first say instead. At the time, a number of people struggled to understand the difference, or didn’t see what having first say would even mean.

If you imagine a group that takes turns choosing movies to watch, games to play, or restaurants for takeout, though, it’s easy:

When someone has first say which restaurant to choose, they make their choice, and if it works for everyone, it stands. Otherwise, it’s the opening of a conversation, and the people who have particular needs, concerns, or wishes otherwise, get to weigh in and help make the group decision. Only when everyone’s on board has the decision been made.

When someone has final say, though, their role is to end the conversation, not open it, and if they choose to ignore someone else’s needs, their choice stands anyway. Once the decision’s been made, the rest of the group has to get on board, or else refuse to.

These rules follow Psi*Run’s convention of assigning first say, and leaving final say to the group, not to any one player.

The style in assigning final say started with the Pool, and followed into some other classics: Primetime Adventures, Trollbabe, InSpectres, Universalis, and more.

For purposes of my thought experiment today, let’s set aside the distinction between final say and Otherkind Dice’s first say, and just examine the idea of assigning say.

One of the lively concerns at the time was, naturally, who should have the say. In the Pool, the rule’s called the “monologue of victory”: if you win your roll, you can choose to take a monologue of victory and seize the say — but otherwise, it remains with the GM.

Other games handled it in a variety of ways:

• The winner of the roll always has the say.
• The loser of the roll always has the say.
• You can spend a resource to buy the say, win or lose.
• Other circumstances, fictional or mechanical, give you the say, or take it away.

Otherkind Dice’s answer to the question of assigning say is kind of complex, where each risk card assigns the say only for itself. Some of the risk cards give you the say on a high die, and some give you the say on a low die. Some give the same person the say no matter what die you assign. This turns the final, complete outcome into a casual collaboration between the parties: you might have the first say about the effects of your success, but the GM has first say about the injury you suffer in the effort, for instance.

Over the years, Meg and I came to pay close attention to one particular way to assign the say. It was Meg’s default for running lightweight games with kids, for instance. All things equal, it reliably promoted enthusiastic, collaborative play, and kept people engaged through the highs and lows of play. If you’d asked us, we would have recommended it as the simple best choice, for any game that didn’t demand differently:

• The GM describes your successes, you describe your failures.

Prelim 2. One Analysis of PbtA Moves

Over the past decade plus there have emerged several recurring analyses of PbtA moves. One of them is, the moves determine who gets their way in the game. Earlier today I happened to read it put this way: “[it’s] what I call ‘rolling for narrative control’ and it’s opposed to ‘rolling for success’.” [Brian Ashford on Bluesky, here.]

Put into terms of assigning the say, it’d look like this:

• On a 10+, the player gets the say.
• On a 7–9, the player gets the say, but the GM gets to add a wrinkle.
• On a miss, the GM gets the say.

…Which doesn’t hold across the board, but some moves do work like this and you can see the point for sure. ESPECIALLY if you look at Apocalypse World’s basic moves, which have relatively various hit results, but for all of them, on a miss, be prepared for the worst. The MC has the say.

It works for Apocalypse World, but here’s what’s startling about it: it’s the opposite of Meg’s and my all-things-equal preferred way. Our preference would have been, on a miss, YOU say what goes wrong.

The Thought Experiment

I’m going to take a selection of moves from across my various PbtA games, and rewrite them to suit our old preference: on a miss, you have the say. Let’s see how they turn out!

AW:Burned Over: Confront Someone

When you confront someone, make it clear what you want from them and how far you’re willing to go, and roll+Aggro. On a 10+, they have to choose: defy you to your face and take the consequences, or cave and do what you want. On a 7–9, if they don’t want to obey you or defy you, they can try to stall, make excuses, or pass the buck, but in return you take +1forward against them. On a miss, be prepared for the worst. On a miss, instead say what goes wrong or how you give them an out.

AW:Burned Over: Read a Situation

When you read a charged situation, roll+Sharp. On a 10+, ask the MC 3 questions right now. On a 7–9, ask the MC 1 question. They have to answer frankly, and when you’re acting on their answers, take +1 to any rolls you make.
• Who’s in control here? (How can I tell?)
• What’s my best way in / out / around / through? (What makes me think so?)
• Who or what poses the biggest threat to me? (How can I tell?)
• Who or what represents the best opportunity for me to do [x]? (How can I tell?)
• What should I be on the lookout for? (What makes me think so?)
On a miss, the MC might have you ask 1 anyway, but be prepared for the worst.
On a miss, you can ask 1 anyway, but say what goes wrong for you or how you misjudge the situation.

Under Hollow Hills: Open Up to Someone

When you open up to someone, roll. On any hit, you capture their attention and they must hear you out. On a 10+ hit, choose 2 of the following. On a 7–9 hit, choose 1.
• Reveal to them what you’d like them to do. If they accede, offer them a reward or a favor, but if they refuse, you may consider it an insult.
• Reveal to them something you’re considering, and judge their reaction to it. Ask their player what they think; they have to tell you. This can be implicit or explicit, and they may or may not realize what they’ve revealed.
• Offer them something, explicitly or implicitly. If they accept it, they’re beholden to you, in proportion, as you judge it, but if they refuse, you may consider it an insult.
• Confide in them or explain something to them. Tell them what you reveal and ask them how they take it. They must answer honestly.
On a miss, ask the MC or the other player what goes wrong. They might have you choose 1 anyway, but be prepared for the worst. Perhaps you’ve made yourself beholden to them.
On a miss, you can choose 1 anyway, but say how you make a mistake or mishandle it. Perhaps you’ve made yourself beholden to them.

The Wolf King’s Son: Resorting to Violence

If you confront someone and they defy you, or if you roll a weak play and don’t like how it turns out, you can choose to resort to violence.
On a strong play of 5 or more, have them choose one of the following for you:
• I gain the upper hand and they flee.
• I gain the upper hand and they submit to my mercy.
• I hurt or frighten them badly and they flee.
• I’m able to hold them off until [X] happens.
On a weak play of 4 or less, mark danger, and they gain the upper hand over you. Ask Say whether they beat you and leave you for dead, take you captive, drive you away, or what.

The Wolf King’s Son: Trusting Your Instincts

When someone or something is out of your control and you decide to throw up your hands and go along with it, or when you decide to plunge ahead without any more planning or reservation, you can trust your instincts to see you through. Roll.
On a strong play of 5 or more, say that you come out of it okay, on your feet and basically safe or basically successful. Ask where you are now and what happened to get you here.
On a weak play of 4 or less, mark danger, and say that you can tell it’s going badly for you. Ask Say where you are and what’s happening when you realize it. You can choose whether to make a different play now, or leave it on the table and trust your instincts again.

The Wolf King’s Son: Lashing Out Suddenly at Someone

When you lash out suddenly at someone, roll. No matter what you roll, you cut, slice, lash, startle, strike, and/or hurt them.
On a strong roll of 5 or more, you surprise and dismay them. Say that they have to choose: retreat and withdraw, back down and try to appease you, or fight back. Ask them which they do.
If they try to appease you, mark mistrust.
On a weak roll of 4 or less, you lash out at them, but they can keep calm and self-possessed. Ask Say whether they stand their ground, back down with dignity, push you without fighting back, fight back, or what.

The Demon Tree: Get to Work

When you get to work, tell the GM what you’re trying to do and how you’re going about it. Ask them what you can accomplish on a 10+ hit and what you can accomplish on a 7–9 hit, then roll your Bold. On that hit, that’s what you accomplish. On a miss, ask the GM what goes wrong instead. On a miss, say what goes wrong or what holds you back in your work.

The Demon Tree: Move Into Position

When you try to move into position against an enemy, explain the position you’re trying to get into and how you’re going to get there, then roll your Bold. Tell the GM your roll and ask them how close you can get to your position, or where you get blocked and by what.
Whatever the outcome, on a 10+ hit, you also have an edge.
On a miss, ask the GM what goes wrong instead.
On a miss, say what goes wrong or what keeps you where you are.

The Barbarian’s Bloody Quest: Submit to Circumstances

…Instead of exerting yourself, just trying to come out on your feet.
At the end of this, you’re going to ask your volunteers where you wind up and what state you’re in when you get there, but first roll. On any hits, choose one per hit:
• I keep my feet.
• I keep my bearings.
• I keep my senses.
• I keep my grip.
• I keep my dignity.
• I keep my self-control.
• I keep my self-respect.
• &c as necessary.
Before you choose, you can ask your volunteers just how badly it might go, and make your choices accordingly.
On a miss, choose one, but it’s “I can’t keep…”
Tell your volunteers which you’ve chosen and ask tell them, given that, where you wind up and what state you’re in when you get there.

The Barbarian’s Companion: Exert Your Charm

You may exert your charm to draw someone out or to draw them in. To do this, you need at least a moment with them out of immediate danger, and they must not regard you as their direct enemy. Given this, tell your volunteers that you’re going to charm them, and roll.
On any hits, choose one per hit:
• I find them exciting, maybe dangerous, maybe attractive, maybe enticing. Will they invite me closer?
• I want to laugh, joke, and sport with them. Will they set aside wariness, stuffiness, rigidity, vanity?
• I want to feel safe with them, comfortable in their presence. Will they show themself to be calm, easy, kind?
• I want to know them better. Will they open up to me?
• I want to be myself with them, not put on a show. Will they listen to me with an open heart?
• I want to be alone with them. Will they come where I lead them?
• I find them diverting, for now. What will they do to keep my interest?
• Or another of your own, along the same lines.
Tell your volunteers your choices and ask them what happens.
On a miss, choose 1 anyway, but something distracts you — ask or tell your volunteers what — and they lose the focus of your attention. Ask your volunteers how they take it.
On a miss, choose 1 anyway, but something distracts you — tell your volunteers what — and they lose the focus of your attention. Tell your volunteers how they hold it against you.

The Barbarian’s Companion: Rob Someone

When you spot a likely mark, someone carrying coin or wearing fine ornaments, to rob them, roll. On any hits, you get a number of chances, one chance per hit. A “chance” is something like:
• If the way is crowded enough, I can brush past them as though by accident, and perhaps slip coins from their purse without their notice. Does an opportunity present itself?
• If I catch them unaware, I can rush them, knock them over, simply seize their purse or jewelry and flee with it. Does an opportunity present itself?
• If they’re standing still with their attention occupied, I can slip close to them and cut their purse from their belt, and make an escape before they realize it’s gone. Does an opportunity present itself?
• If I can catch them alone, I can put the edge of a knife to them and demand their wealth. Does an opportunity present itself? Do they fight back?
• I can follow them unobtrusively, and perhaps they’ll lead me to their home, where their greater wealth is to be found. Where do they go? Can I keep with them, or do they make it impossible?
You can invent your own. Take the first chance that pans out for you.
On a miss, or if none of your chances pan out, tell your volunteers that they’re too careful and vigilant and you let them go unrobbed. [No change.]

I could keep going indefinitely! I’m finding it a pretty interesting exercise.

Thoughts?

One thing that’s evident to me is that some moves nearly work this way already, especially in the games like The Wolf King’s Son and The Barbarian’s Bloody Quest — games where the player takes more responsibility for their own rules and their own play overall. Replacing “ask or say” with “say” just seems pointless.

In the more traditional games like AW:Burned Over and The Demon Tree, the revised moves read wrong to me, naturally, but suggestive: what must the rest of the game look like, for these moves to be right?

How about you? Any observations?